Official Luthiers Forum!

This was mentioned on a recent post about tuners. I think it deserves it's own thread.

My take: Tuner back-lash?!? When would that matter? With the string tension always in one direction (and always large), when would "back-lash" come to play? Maybe when friction at the nut or roller contact point was very big. (And then, you'd still have a problem. Zero backlash might reduce that problem by an infinitesimal amount.) Why Is this always brought up in evaluating tuners? I don't get it.

I have my own preferences in tuners based on friction, durability, dimensions, price, and cosmetics. "Back-lash" is never something I consider.

Backlash makes it harder to tune when you get close. It's particularly true on a classical guitar. Classical players are usually pretty picky about backlash in tuners. It's why Rodgers, Alessi, Scheller, and Graff can sell tuners for $500 to $1000.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

If you only tune in one direction I.e. increasing pitch, then backlash doesn't matter much. I don't know anyone who does that so to me, it matters a lot.

Machinists?

twick got it right: "If you only tune in one direction, i.e. increasing pitch, then backlash doesn't matter much."

This is what I do, just like turning cranks on a mill or lathe. Always sneak up on it from lower pitch to higher. Now, if you really have to go either direction without lash, get high precision ball screws on your machines (very expensive!) and thousand dollar tuners on your instruments.

You are assuming that most players think and tune their guitars like luthiers, always going from low pitch to high pitch, with the strings perfectly wound around the post of the tuning machine.

Real world? The galoot winds THE WHOLE string around the post (and never pre-stretching the string), and detunes when he goes sharp. Then the string loosens, and backlash suddenly makes the players' day ugly and he immediately hates whoever built the dang stringed instrument in his hands. So now it's all our fault. That's why backlash is important.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

And, to make matters worse, the galoot can't even begin to get his mind around paying for expensive tuners!

I take care of that problem by edu-muh-cating my customers. They love free advice, so string changes and setups are always a good oppurtunity.

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Old growth, shmold growth!

On the guitars I've played I've never been able to just tune in one direction. Some times the string is flat, sometimes sharp.(Humidity, temp, swelling, shrinking and all that)When it is sharp there is no choice but to tune down, even if you plan on tuning down and then back up.

The backlash is going to determine how far down and back up you have to go. This is annoying to some people, including me. Especially if the nut is just a little sticky and it's hard to find that perfect tension. However, I've found most common tuners on the market today work pretty well within my frustration tolerance, even the cheap ones, for a while anyway. This is probably because I've always had pretty cheap guitars and recall my Dad saying to me early on, "always tune up."

For some odd reason I find it easier to go below the note and tune up. Nothing to do with the tuners, just me adjusting my ear to get the note right. I would do the same if the tuners had absolute zero backlash, deliberately tune below so that I can creep up on the in tune note. I probably just do it out of habit.
Very tiny amounts of backlash aren't really a problem, although I'll take a guess and suggest that the whole worm gear and gear wheel will suffer premature wear. It's not always inaccurately cut gears that is the problem, sometimes it's the relative positions of the two geared parts that causes the backlash.

I was taught back in the sixties to always tune up to a pitch, and that is the right way, and then backlash shouldn't matter. With all of the people that have my guitars (at least those in the UK), I make sure that when it comes to the first string change they come back to me and I show them how to do it properly.

Waddy is, as usual, correct though and it is much more critical with the classical player, note I said player, they are much more critical about tuners, they tend to be much less interested in cosmetics of the instrument and more critical of ergonomics and voice. That is why all of my classicals have either Rodgers or Robson hand made tuners, as Waddy says they can cost up to a £700 ($1100) but they are the ones demanded by the full time players over here, I see no reason to compromise. My 'Student' guitars have Robson tuners at £350 ($550). Some builders will spend ridiculous amounts of money on BRW for the B&S which will give only marginal, if any, benefit over say EIR, but blanche at spending the same on a much more important component, the tuners.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Until relatively recently Smallman (circa £12,000+ per Guitar) used £40 Schallers

Yes, and over the years at RAM and RCM I've retro-fitted a fair few with Rodgers.

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Cheap Chinese made tuners = Badlash!!!!!!!

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MK5acoustics.com

It is a sign of bad machining and lack of quality usually seen in the cheap tuners and a quick turn off to a customer. I will no longer use Grover stay tites as I was getting at least 1 with bad slop in each set. The last straw was a tuner right out of the package with close to 1/4 turn of slop. I will rake tight fit gears as they will wear in but the slop is the deal breaker. I now use Gotoh open back tuners instead and the difference in fit and the quality in general is way more than the price difference would suggest.

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

Cheap tuners with lash just feel CHEAP! Customers notice.
I don't use any tuners that have loose wobbly capstans off the guitar, which eliminates quite a few, Sta-Tites especially! (There has never been a less aptly named tuner!).

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Old growth, shmold growth!

Back lash is a new term to me. Could someone explain? Thanks.
Bob

Edit: Nevermind, I googled it. It's the slop in the tuner when reversing direction?

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Bob
From the oldest town in Texas.

Which Gotohs are you using? Do you have a preferred supplier?

For open back tuners I've had good luck with 18:1 Sta-Tites but if Gotoh has something comparable for about the same price I'd definitely give them a shot.

I use the Gotoh, open-gear, brass gear tuners from LMI



I was in the same boat until I tried the Gotoh and realized they are 10 times better at only less than double the price. My only dislike is they are only 15:1.

I just used a set of the hipshot open back tuners on my just completed Irish Bouzouki and though quite different looking than the Waverly copies such as Staytites and Gotoh they are an excellent quality tuner and 18:1 ratio. http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41056

Fred

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Fred Tellier
http://www.fetellierguitars.com
Facebook page http://www.facebook.com/pages/FE-Tellier-Guitars/163451547003866

My habit is to tune up to the note, stretch the string, tune up to the note, stretch the string...and so on...until the string finally holds the note through a pretty good stretch. I assume this works against any kind of backlash in the tuner but there isn't much of that to speak of in the Gotoh 510's I use.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

I'm assuming that he's assuming that players are going to put whatever tuner they prefer on the instrument anyway, and he'd prefer not to deal with the entire tuner aftermarket from his hideout in Oz.

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Jim Kirby
kirby@udel.edu

I doubt that was the reason. You can always give your clients the option of 2 or 3 of the better tuners. It's not exactly difficult to order tuners in. He seems to be able to get all the other supplies, including carbon fibre. I suspect that he took the view that they 'work' and didn't bother about the appearance. Pretty much any tuner look better than the schallers.
Anyway, he's using much better tuners these days.